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#114950 - 05/13/13 12:16 AM Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses
DudleyFamily Offline
Very Experienced User

Registered: 12/24/11
Posts: 112
Loc: USA
I had 2 JW's come by on Sabbath. There wasn't anything new that they could surprise my wife and I with...like the pagan holidays and His Name removed....he said he does believe the true Name is YHWH but in the English it is proper as Jehovah. Anyways, we spent a couple of hours talking. I think their tactics are surprising people into the lies they have been told about the pagan stuff, and the "name". We got into the clean food verses in the NT and my wife and I thoroughly explained to them the context of the clean/unclean animals on the sheet vision because in the end, he does say all MEN are clean.

I am going to get some really good stuff prepared for when they come to show the truth in what the Word says about commandment keeping, feast days, clean food, sin=transgression of the law, and Sabbath. I had asked him if he thought there was anything wrong with keeping Sabbath and eating clean and he said, no. So I don't understand why he would want to keep coming back if we already have knowledge of what Yahushua stands for and what repentance is....other than converting us to JW's.


My question is: Has anybody had any progress with reaching out to JW's, especially when they come by. I talked to our near by Sabbath keeping friends and they knew of the guy(apparently they have their own territories they go door to door at) and he told me the more they come by the weirder the teachings get, like Yahushua being Michael the arc angel and there version of heaven on earth and emphasis on the 144,000. The JW's also do not believe any tribe is left to be recognized...not even the Jews!

I only will be using scripture to, as is always smartest, to hopefully put doubt in his mind about the Watchtower doctrines...to humble him into asking Yahweh to show him the true context of what It says and get him thinking into the middle eastern Hebraic mindset.

Any suggestions are appreciated. Please no bashing of JW's...I really want to reach out to him.
_________________________
"I have found truly joyful Christians only in the Bible, in the Underground Church, and in prison." Richard Wurmbrand, Tortured For Christ

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#114951 - 05/13/13 01:38 AM Alive in Messiah Yeshua [Re: DudleyFamily]
yeshuaslave Offline
Very Experienced User

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 358
Loc: tulsa
David Bercot wrote "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand up".
.
It is a very enlightened and enlightening little easy to read paper back.
.
He was born/raised jw, and was born again when he was about 7 years old.
At that age, and for about a decade, He still believed that his own family and 'church' was full of likewise saved people.
.
Gradually though, he learned and saw and knew that he himself was 'unique', being alive, and, likewiwse, his family and 'church' learned gradually that he was 'different' from them, and they kicked him out exactly as Yeshua said they would(if they weren't willing to be born again).
.
Every person is different, and their history, learning, studies, life and emotions may only be known by Yhwh, so, as
always, Yhwh will have to direct your steps and your words to
have any good result. He may draw them to Himself, or He may
give them over to their delusion, according to His Good Pleasure.(see in the New Testament how He directed the various
emissaries, their words and their lives, as well as all the
people).
.
We hope and pray for their salvation, as Yhwh permits and directs us. Every soul is precious to Him, as Christ's blood
was shed for all.
_________________________
"...suffer persecution so
that, perhaps, take part in
resurrection..." Paul's letter

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#114953 - 05/13/13 08:25 AM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: DudleyFamily]
leejosepho Offline
Joseph Lee
Veteran User***

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: NW Louisiana usa
Originally Posted By: DudleyFamily
My question is: Has anybody had any progress with reaching out to JW's...

Not so far...and a bit like Shaul, a passive-aggressive opportunist, I have tried every "tactic" known to me.

Quote:
I don't understand why he would want to keep coming back if we already have knowledge of what Yahushua stands for and what repentance is....

As I understand things, his continual stopping by is part of the "works" he believes he must do in order to be "saved" or whatever. In comparison, the LDS folks keep a "no call" list (whenever someone asks they stop coming by) and just move along to the next house.


Edited by leejosepho (05/13/13 08:28 AM)
_________________________
“Please begin at the basic truths and work forward instead of beginning at problematic passages and working backwards.” - varnishke

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#115007 - 06/16/13 08:35 AM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: leejosepho]
Yahnathan Offline
Very Experienced User

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 194
Loc: Denison,TX,USA
As you may know doctrines held within the "Hebrew-Roots/Messianic Movement vary widely. At least the Jehovah's Witness have organized and come to a consensus as to what they believe in even if it maybe flawed. Having said this in my humble opinion many "Hebrew-Roots/Messianic Movement" adherents especially, those new to the movement, can learn much from Jehovah's Witnesses. Many false teachings run rampant in the "Hebrew Roots/Messianic Movement. So that I don't offend anyone I will not get into those false teachings in this discussion. Let me say that the best and most humble teachers are students first and can learn from anyone. Are you familiar with the Hebraic term G-d fearer or more accurately one who fears YHWH ? In my humble opinion Jehovah's Witnesses fit this category much better than mainstream Christians simply because they are not fettered with the pagan customs. In fact a few well respected teachers consider Jehovah's Witnesses as Noahhides or G-d fearers as I do. According to Orthodox Judaism Noahhides also G-d fears (one in the same) have a place in the world to come or what Jehovah's Witnesses refer to as Paradise Earth. Paradise Earth being the restored or New Earth. Jehovah's Witnesses teach there are two classes of YHWH's people, those who will be subjects of the Kingdom and those who are Spritual leaders of that Kingdom which they refer to as the heavenly hope aka the 144,000 and I would have to agree with them. In my opinion one must take on the yoke of the Torah (not for salvation mind you as the torah was not given to save us)in order to be among those who serve as spiritual leaders of the Kingdom. Those who would be chosen to serve as the leaders of the Kingdom aka the 144,000 must submit to Torah keep Sabbath Feasts ect but has nothing to do with salvation we cannot earn salvation by keeping the torah. Salvation comes by faith alone. Having said this there is a difference in saying one has faith and truly showing faithfulness. Concerning there teaching of going door to door it is biblical and I recommend this for the growth of any Hebrew Roots Ministry. While some may say radio, TV or internet ministry may meet the requirements of this Command and it is a Command from Yahushua door to door has proven to be much more effective than these other more costly means. As Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who both practice door to door evangelic activity are among the fastest growing ministries. This goes to the wisdom of Yahushua. Going door to door does not mean forcing your faith on others but building relationships with others and sharing ones faith. We should all be going door to door introducing our ministries inviting them to study and passing out tracts and building relationships first and foremost. As for their teaching that Yahushua is Michael the arch angel. The Hebrew name from which the name Michael is derived means, One who is like G-d(YHWH), and the Hebrew term from which we derive the English angel simply means a messanger. Who would deny that Yahushua is like his father ? Would would deny that Yahushua is YHWH's messanger ? It is true that Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Yahushua is a created being and a seprate, distinct being from and inferior to Father YHWH in the sense that the Father is his authority as a Husband is the authority of the wife and yet at the same time they do not deny his divinity and to be completely honest I agree with them. This is far from the Trinity doctrine and in my humble opinion much more scriptualy accurate. As to the date of 1914, who knows they might just be right but not enough scriptural evidence for me to make it a plank of doctrine.
_________________________
Yahnathan

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#115009 - 06/16/13 09:08 AM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: Yahnathan]
leejosepho Offline
Joseph Lee
Veteran User***

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: NW Louisiana usa
Originally Posted By: Yahnathan
...have organized and come to a consensus as to what they believe in...

I like to set "believe in" aside in favor of "believe and do", but that is a point for consideration. While we should staunchly defend each individual's right to believe as s/he wills, I see nothing good in being divided over mere beliefs where it takes nothing more than a bit of humility and willingness to get past that and get on with doing the things we should be doing both with and for each other.

Quote:
Let me say that the best and most humble teachers are students first and can learn from anyone.

Agreed. I learned long ago that the pizza-delivery person (messenger) has nothing to do with the quality of the food (message). So, I seek tid-bits and nuggets -- a little here or a little there -- from wherever they might come, then share them with others -- beggars showing other beggars where bread can be found -- without starting my own "pizza joint" for serving whatever might seem to then serve me.

Quote:
Are you familiar with the Hebraic term G-d fearer or more accurately one who fears YHWH?

Yes, and that is something I look for in others no matter what kind of outer garments they might be wearing.

Quote:
...submit to Torah keep Sabbath Feasts ect but has nothing to do with salvation we cannot earn salvation by keeping the torah.

Torah shows us how we can endure to the end where salvation awaits us.

Quote:
Salvation comes by faith alone.

My belief/faith/trust is in the author of Torah as I "work out my salvation" in the form of Name-likeness.

Quote:
...there is a difference in saying one has faith and truly showing faithfulness.

Agreed.

Quote:
We should all be going door to door...

Not necessarily in a literal sense, but yes, we should all be actively looking for opportunities where relationships can lead to our being able to meet others at their actual points of need.


Edited by leejosepho (06/16/13 09:11 AM)
_________________________
“Please begin at the basic truths and work forward instead of beginning at problematic passages and working backwards.” - varnishke

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#115011 - 06/16/13 08:23 PM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: yonah1]
Yahnathan Offline
Very Experienced User

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 194
Loc: Denison,TX,USA
Here is an interesting fact: A 2008 study showed that the JWs grew by 2.25% and the LDS grew by 1.56%. These religions showed the highest growth rates of any Christian denomination in the study. This simply goes to the wisdom of Yahushua. In an age of less and less personal contact, personal contact is winning the war of dicipleship. While the topic here is how to reachout to JW's with further truth we must reconize they are reaching multutudes all over the world with truth's lost by mainstream christianity. Reconizing this fact may indeed be the key to reaching JW's of further truth aka Sabbath, feasts ect. and in learning from the success of their evangelistic activity we might in turn reachout to many others as well.
_________________________
Yahnathan

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#115012 - 06/16/13 09:13 PM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: Yahnathan]
Yahnathan Offline
Very Experienced User

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 194
Loc: Denison,TX,USA
I certainly have enjoyed the many coversations and topics of study I have had with JW's over the years. Admitting that they are far and above mainstream christianity in truth teaching today and in biblical knowledge may well be an understatement. In fact I would dare say that while many among the leaders of Hebrew Roots assemblies have come from mainstream christianity backgrounds their process of growth has been largely spurred by JW scholarship. Interaction between JW leaders and the sacred name movement of the 1920 and 1930's and leaders of the 7th day church of god of the same time period cannot be denied. As many of us church history buffs know quite well. As the old addage goes it is difficult to put new wine in old wineskins. Hinse the diverance of these three faiths which today along with the Messianic movement of the 1950 and 60's has produced the ground swell of Modern Hebraic Messianism we see today. Understanding this history is key to understanding the belief held by some promenent Hebraic Messianism leaders that JW's are indeed modern day G-d fearers. In my view we must remember that old addage " It is difficult to put new wine in old wine skins " therefore very few JW will accept new truth simply because they are not being called to that knowledge.
_________________________
Yahnathan

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#115013 - 06/16/13 10:31 PM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: Yahnathan]
Yahnathan Offline
Very Experienced User

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 194
Loc: Denison,TX,USA
Having established some of the history and understanding of the influence JW teaching has had on the modern Hebraic Messianism we can better determine a course going forward. You must first develope a relationship that goes beyond I'm right your wrong philosophy become a friend and acknolege that you accept that JW have a place in the kingdom of YHWH even if they assert you do not. That is essentially what JW teach, if you are not a member of the organization of JW they do not believe you have a place in the kingdom. Do not let this offend you. Next build a solid foundation of we both agree on this. The Sacred name is a great foundation. Jehovah's witnesses own bible appendix on sacred name admitts modern hebrew scholarship prefers Yahweh over Jehovah the appendix admitts they use Jehovah simply because it is more commonly known. This is solid common ground. Pagan orgins of Christmass and Easter another commonality. Know their teachings and know your common ground and focus on that. Depending on your perticular brand of Hebraic Messianism you may or may not believe in the trinity. If you believe in the trinity sincerly ask yourself did Abraham believe in the trinity ? Mainstream Christianity states that one who does not accept trinity doctrine has no place in the kingdom. While you may beleive in the trinity you may or may not agree with mainstream christianity that someone who does not accept it has no place in the kingdom. If you beleive in the trinity get ready for a history lesson you might just get schooled as the trinity doctrine did not exist until the 4th century and there is little if no biblical support for it. What about all those followers of Messiah before the 4th century? You must be willing to open your own eyes to truth before the eyes of others are opened. If you do not beleive in trinity or at the very least do not agree with mainstream christianity that belief in trinity is ness for salvation you have found more common ground. Jehovah's witnesses will offer you there tracts and studies but they will not accept yours or if they do they will not study it as the watchtower society frowns on this. That simply is not fare and let them know this but make sure you have established a relationship first do not refuse there material. If you push things too hard before establishing a relationship they will simply stop comming over. If they believe you are sincerly open to discover "new truth" which you sincerly should be even if they are not and have established a relationship beyond bible study they will keep comming. I have had ongoing relationships with JW's for years. Do not attack the Watch Tower Society this is key. When in debate concentrate on the doctrine and its biblical support or lack there of not where the doctrine comes from and you should fare well. You have no hope if you donot build a relationship or you attact the Sociey and its false prophcies.
_________________________
Yahnathan

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#115014 - 06/17/13 12:58 AM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: Yahnathan]
Yahnathan Offline
Very Experienced User

Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 194
Loc: Denison,TX,USA
When getting into any biblicial debate I believe it is important for those involved to first decide what is the very minium requirement of faith to see one another as a brother. For me it is very simple if one believes in the Mighty One of Abraham, Issiac, and Jacob and has faith in his salvation I can call that one a brother. Anything beyond this is simply growing in knowledge and truth and growing in relationship with the father. However we have a tendancy to want everyone to believe exactly like we do either because we have a false misconception as to the "Salvation" of others or because we want them to come in closer relationship with the father. Because I hold this broad view of faith even in my debates with mainsteam christians I am not worried about their "Salvation" as much as I am concerned with their growth in knowledge and truth and deeping a relationship with them in the Father. But only because in inguaging in truthseeking with others I am increasing in my own knowlegde and relationship with the father. This mind set helps aleive the tension in these debates and reminds me of whats really important a relationship with the father our fellow man and mutual growth. And I think this is important to remind others as well. The best way to teach others about the Sabbath and Feasts is not to tell them "you should be keeping them they are commanded of YHWH" even though this is certainly true A better way is by sharing with others our experiences and how those experiences have increased our knowledge and formed stronger bonds with others and the father as a result. Example, as a means of developing relationships it's important that we spend time together, enjoying a meal is a fantastic way to accomplish this. I often envite others to a meal in the process they come to understand this is a special meal we enjoy with family and friend's a weekly Sabbath meal. They become curious and ask questions and we share our faith as a result. We explain this is how we express our faith. It may be a weekly Sabbath, New Moon or a Festival. The conversation usually starts up the next day or two afterward. It usually starts with are you Jewish and my responce is not to my knowlegde the next questions is If we believe in Jesus and I explain yes we refer to him as Yahushua his hebrew name. Those whom YHWH is calling are drawn to him through you. Attacking people with Christmass and Easter is pagan the name Jesus is pagan. If this is the way you attempt to draw people to YHWH good luck to you. In fact in building this relationship I avoid the Topic of Easter and Christmass like the plague. We don't say we do these things because YHWH commanded them we say we do these things because they are customs we can support biblically. Before long this family is planning a vacation in the fall to attend the feast of Succot with us simply because they are so curious and because they have simply fallen in love with YHWH. A year or two down the road they stumble into a study that teaches that Yahushua was most likely born during the time of the fall feasts not christmass. And before long they come to me and tell me they have decided not to celebrate christmass anymore because the read an artical online showing the pagan orgins of the customs involved with them. Some time along the way they ask us why we don't use the name Jesus. This is when I teach them that Joshua the son of Nun and "Jesus" have the same name. I explain that the name Jesus is not a pagan name because it is certainly not pagan it is simply incorrect. If we were going to use his english name we should properly use the name Joshua. We prefer the Hebrew Yahushua and leave it at that.
_________________________
Yahnathan

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#115015 - 06/17/13 07:00 AM Re: Reaching out to Jehovah Witnesses [Re: Yahnathan]
leejosepho Offline
Joseph Lee
Veteran User***

Registered: 07/28/01
Posts: 3134
Loc: NW Louisiana usa
Originally Posted By: Yahnathan
...first develop a relationship that goes beyond I'm right your wrong philosophy become a friend and acknowledge that you accept [others may] have a place in the kingdom of YHWH even if they assert you do not.

The principles you share are quite refreshing, Yahnathan! As long as we know Yahuah is One and is far greater than any of us -- in and of ourselves we can do no good thing -- all other beliefs are mere commentary along the way as we learn together even if the other person believes s/he already knows. Sharing our own experience in salvation is not a competition, and our contact is never violent.
_________________________
“Please begin at the basic truths and work forward instead of beginning at problematic passages and working backwards.” - varnishke

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