posted 06-29-1999 12:23 AM            

All Yeho names were spelled Iw-Iota, omega. All, that is, except Yehoshua, which was spelled Ih-Iota, heta.

Yehoahaz -Iwaxaz Iota, omega, alpha, chi, alpha, zeta
Yehoash - Iwas Iota, omega, alpha, sigma
Yehoiachin - Iwaxin Iota, omega, alpha, chi, iota, nu
Yehoiada - Iwdae Iota, omega, delta, alpha, epsilon
Yehonadab - Iwna Iota, omega, nu, alpha
Yehonathan - Iwathan Iota, omega, alpha, theta, alpha, nu
Yehoshaphat - Iwsaphat Iota, omega, sigma, alpha, phi, alpha, tau
Yehosheba - Iwsabee Iota, omega, sigma, alpha, beta, epsilon, epsilon
Yehozadak - Iwsedek Iota, omega, sigma, epsilon, delta, epsilon, kappa

There were a few other Yeho names, by Hebrew listings, but the Greek Septuagint, did not have them (I mean the name was simply not there in the verse) or they had changed it, as in the case of Yehochanan. They used Yehonathan, when Yehochanan was in the Hebrew text.

The next group, were the Ho...names

Hoshama - Osamath Omega, sigma, alpha, mu, alpha, theta
Hoshaiah - Osaia Omega, sigma, alpha, iota, alpha
Hothir - Othhri Omega, theta, heta, rho, iota
Hodav(w)iah - Odouia Omega, delta, omicron, upsilon, iota, alpha
Hoshea - Oshe Omega, sigma, heta, epsilon

The Ho...names only occur in the latter writings after the exile. They are a shortened version of Yeho. The Greek has kept consistent with the use of omega for Yeho or Ho.

Here are the names that end in shua.

Elishua - Elisoue Epsilon, lambda, iota, sigma, omicron, upsilon, epsilon
Abishua - Abisou Alpha, beta, iota, sigma, omicron, upsilon

THese two are pretty close, with shua being sigma, omicron, upsilon, being the core.

Here are some other names that have yasha (salvation) as their root, that are similar to Yahusha' (Yahushua).

Hosha'yahu - Osaia Omega, sigma, alpha, iota, alpha
Yeshayahu - Hsaias Heta, sigma, alpha, iota, alpha, sigma
Elisha - Elisaie Epsilon, lambda, iota, sigma, alpha, iota, epsilon

posted 06-29-1999 09:16 AM         

Have you read up on the Name in Gesenius' Hebrew/Chaldee Lexicon? He's got some interesting stuff on Greek renderings as well.

posted 06-29-1999 09:24 AM         

What effect, if any, would the apparent inability of the Ephraimites to "frame to say" "shibboleth" (they said "sibboleth") have on "Yahoshua"? or "Yeshua"?. Is it true that the Greeks had trouble with pronouncing "a" after "u", hence replacing it with "s"? If so, and combined with the aforementioned Ephramite impediment, would (for the sake of grins and giggles) "Yeshua" become "Iesus"?

Somethin' to think about.

posted 06-29-1999 12:01 PM            

I also found a copy of a pre-masoretic Tanakh. It was found by an Alexander Sperber, in the Vatican vault. This copy is different than the Masoretic text that is used today. In it, you can see the pronunciations are different than what is vowel pointed by the Masorites. He pointed out that the Hebrew letters with the second pronunciation, like shin being also sin, only had one pronunciation. Shin was sh, thaw was th, bet was b, etc. It is obvious, he says, that the additional pronunciations were due to the diaspora and written by Masorites. THere were different vowel points between the Babylonian text and the Tiberian text.

As to shibboleth and sibboleth, my Hebrew language histories all say that this is due to northern and southern dialects. In fact, in the Hebrew Tanakh, shibboleth is spelled with a shin, while sibboleth is spelled with a samech. Another verification that sh was a sh and s was a samech.

posted 06-30-1999 12:36 PM            

Martha, I do not understand your question about the name of Jesus meaning something other than salvation in the New Testament. I am not referring to meaning here, so much as variation is spelling. Since this name is treated differently, there has to be a reason. This goes to underlying motives. Since there are no ancient Jewish Septuagint copies, I am suspect of the Gentile Christian scribing. The Hebrew texts have Yehoshua (Yehosha') the same, as all the other Hebrew names. They are transliteration consistent. Why would a Jewish scribe of 250 BCE, set this name apart from the others and treat it differently in spelling? I don't think they would. I believe the change occurs with the Christian handling of the name. But like I said, we only have Christian copies of the Septuagint, so I do not have any proof on that count, just supposition.

I just thought of something. If I can locate extra-biblical accounts of Jewish writings, in Greek) that have the name of Yehoshua (Yehosha') in it, I might be able to prove that the variation came from the Christian side and not the original Jewish. I'm going to have to track that down.

Anyway, if you could please explain your post, I would appreciate it. Shalom, Kat

posted 06-30-1999 05:03 PM            

About your searching, I think that you can consult the last archaelogical finding in Israel (review BAR):

posted 06-30-1999 06:01 PM         

You make me want to kick myself for passing up that textbook on the origins of semitic languages I saw in a used bookshop a few weeks ago!
Anyway, James Trimm has an article on the name at Nazarene.net. Sorry, I can't remember the title.
Dialect is the "great equalizer" in this whole names debate, as far as I'm concerned. What did they say to Kepha in the courtyard?
"You're a Galilean, your speach betrays you!"
So, maybe the Talmidim said "Yahushua", and Annas-n-Caiaphas said "Yehoshua"? And maybe Messiah answered to both?

Psalm 139, and others tell us that YHWH knows altogether our thoughts and words.

Point being that he knows when we are talking to Him, and when we're talking to baal.

Terrific job on the research Kat! Keep up the good work!

posted 06-30-1999 07:17 PM            

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

When we read it in English, we don't really see the connection, i.e. JESUS= saves His people. But if we use the Hebrew name Yahoshua, which means YAH Saves or Is salvation, then it makes perfect sense.

"You shall call his name Yahoshua (YAH Saves/Is Salvation): for he shall save his people from their sins."

posted 06-30-1999 07:41 PM            

-----Lest I be castigated w/o reason, let me 'splain, I wasn't really trying to "prove" anything. Apropos of nothing a few days ago, I just thought I would look up some Biblical Archeology sites and see what I could find. So I went to my favorite browser, which is Google, typed "bible archeology" and started browsing. Here is some of what I found along with the link to the site. I think these may be related to the subject of this thread. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent (i.e. me)

-----Most of the below captions were accompanied by photos of the items they describe. In one you can clearly see the Paleo-Hebrew letters Yod, Shin, Waw, Ayin, (Yeshua) If interested in checking these out, once at the home page, you will have to click on the buttons for previous and past issues.

-----One of the first-century coffins found on the Mt. of Olives contains a commemorative dedication to: "Yeshua" = "xxxxx".

-----An ossuary, found near the tomb of "Simon Barsabas" (Acts 1:21 & 15:22) is inscribed with the dedication: "[To] xxxxx, the Lord." Scholars believe this is the earliest record of xxxxxxxian faith ever found. The burial cave, where the stone coffin was discovered, was sealed not later than the year 42 A.D., more than a decade before any part of the New Testament was written. What Sukenik discovered were the remains of a family burial cave (catacomb) dating to the early part of the first century. It included several stone ossuaries (coffins) marked with the sign of the cross and with numerous inscriptions, included several dedications to "xxxxx."

-----Moreover, historians are surprised to discover dedications to "xxxxx" appearing in Hebrew and Greek in numerous ancient catacombs (burial caves) which apparently belonged to the very first xxxxxxians.

-----Many nineteenth- and twentieth-century scholars and archaeologists supported the theory that the first xxxxxxians were few in number and had quickly dispersed from the Holy Land after xxxxx' crucifixion. In addition, they believed that the symbol of the cross was not used by the first followers of xxxxx but was a latter addition to xxxxxxianity, dating to the third or fourth centuries. These notions are now being disproved by new archaeological studies and discoveries which suggest the existence of a very substantial first century Christian community - a community which labored intensively to spread its new faith from Jerusalem to the rest of the world. A first century ossuary (stone coffin) discovered in a Jerusalem catacomb bears the sign of the cross scratched on its side and a dedication: "To xxxxx... xxxxx son of Joseph." Historians are intrigued by the number of times the name "xxxxx" is found inscribed as a dedication in first century tombs and accompanied by the sign of the cross.

Evidently Yeshua and Yoshua were common diminuatives, i.e. nicknames, for Yahoshua/Yehoshua/Y'hoshua. Just as we can see in Israel today, Benjamin Nathanyahu was called Bibi, his brother Yonathan, killed in the Entebbe raid, was called Yonnie.
http://www.christian.edu/

posted 07-01-1999 07:43 PM            

Old Shepherd, I am familiar with the archaeology revealing the "xxxxx" name. What I have been looking for is more ancient. To see if it has the shua ending at all. I was not familiar with google. I will have to check it out. I generally use Alta Vista. I found a lot more with that, than the banned Yahoo, Looksmart and Snap.

posted 07-02-1999 09:32 AM            

I think that the ancient ayin sounded S.

posted 07-05-1999 07:54 AM            

"But yahu endings are theophoric. Could they have changed it to ias because it was
dealing with a diety? Could that also be the reason why Yehoshua was changed to a totally
different spelling also? Kind of like revisionist spelling. After Yahushaa's execution, copies of the Septuagint began spelling the name differently?"

-----Here is part of an article by Dr. James D. Price, Professor of Hebrew and Old Testament at Temple Baptist Seminary in Chattanooga, TN.
I think you'll want to see the entire article. I find this explanation much more convincing than others I have seen so far. www.direct.ca/trinity/yehoshua.html
-----"Just as with Abram the enlargement of his name into 'Abraham' was an expression of
divine approval, so did this diminution of Jehoshua into Joshua express divine disapproval. The reason for Joshua's failure to implore the Lord to remove the passion for idolatry was his assumption that he possessed the land in its pristine holiness, so that it would in itself help Israel to overcome its idolatrous tendencies.] Perhaps that is the reason why the Talmud altered the spelling of the name Jesus of Nazareth from Yeshua ha-Notzri to Yesu ha-Notzri. However, it is clear that the editor of the Talmud regarded this as the equivalent of Yeshua ha-Notzri."

Oily Drew referred you to "Gesenius",
"A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature.", Walter Bauer, F.W. Gingrich, and Frederick Danker, Chicago Press, 1979.
This is an english translation of "Gesenius" See p. 373, Iesous, Iota, eta, sigma, omicron,upsilon, sigma (Jeshua, Yod, shin, waw, ayin, later form of Yod, heh, waw, shin, waw, ayin. Joshua. . .)