BrClif - John says that everyone who practices sin(A) is also practicing Torahlessness(B), and so sin(A) is(=) Torahlessness (B). A = B In otherwords, the two are synonymous.

BrClif - They are exactly EQUAL!

BrClif - Who is the Torah given for?

BrClif - 1 Timotheus 1:10 fornicators, men who lie with males, kidnappers, liars, false swearers, and whatever other thing is in opposition to the healthful teaching 11 according to the glorious good news of the blessed Elohim, with which I was entrusted.

BrClif - This basically says that Torah is given for all those that don't keep it by nature! If you told today's Church that they were supposed to obey all this Torah stuff, they'd tell you that you were trying to put them under bondage.

BrClif - I don't know about you, but I'm not righteous enough to do all of these commandments by nature. I needed to read the Bible when I was a teen to wake me up to the fact that these things were wrong.

BrClif - If I did not have the Torah/Law to inform and remind me that these things were wrong, I would probably still be doing them.

BrClif - As for the idea that the Ruach/Spirit will lead you into all the goodness you need, I must respond that it was the Ruach that led me to love the Torah.

BrClif - Only the Ruach could break my rebellious heart and confirm to me that it was the way to respond to the free gift of salvation.

BrClif - For the New Covenant, as described in YirmeYaHU/Jeremiah, is that we would WANT to do the Torah, since it would become spiritually written upon our hearts.

BrClif - 2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and Torahlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?

BrClif - ___________________

BrClif - The sacrifice of YaHUshua covers our deeds of sin, i.e, the breaking of the Torah.

BrClif - Romans 4:7 "Happy are those whose Torahless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered;

BrClif - Hebrews 10:17 [it says afterwards:] "And I shall by no means call their sins and their Torahless deeds to mind anymore."

BrClif - ____________

BrClif - What exactly is it that YaHUshua is saving us from?

BrClif - Welcome back, Simcha! :)

BrClif - Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us that he might deliver us from every sort of Torahlessness and cleanse for himself a people peculiarly his

BrClif - own, zealous for good works.

BrClif - (You might want to maximize your windows, for ease of reading)

BrClif - (just don't click the dash or the X)

BrClif - ______________

BrClif - It is no wonder that the man of haGalil(Galilee) is associated with Torah-breaking, since this is in fulfillment of prophecy. YaHUshua said...

BrClif - Lukas 22:37 For I tell YOU that this which is written must be accomplished in me, namely, 'And he was reckoned with Torahless ones.' For that which concerns me is having an accomplishment."

BrClif - Now, in asserting this, don't misunderstand me...

BrClif - I am only saying that Scripture says that HE would be "reckoned" or "associated" with Torah-less ones, but He Himself kept all of it!

BrClif - _________________

BrClif - How are we to walk, now that our Torah violations have been pardoned?

BrClif - Romans 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of YOUR flesh: for even as YOU presented YOUR members as slaves to uncleanness and Torahlessness with Torahlessness in view, so now present YOUR members as slaves to righteousness with holiness in view.

BrClif - We are to use our "members", our body parts, as slaves to Torah-keeping...

BrClif - In TIMES PAST, before we were saved/delivered from Babylon/the World/religious confusion, we walked without the Torah.

BrClif - Our body parts served a lifestyle apart from the Torah.

BrClif - _____________

BrClif - The church likes to accuse those who try to teach mankind to keep the Torah that they are "stealing their joy."

BrClif - However...

BrClif - Our joy increases along with our love for the Torah.

BrClif - Hebrews 1:9 You loved righteousness, and you hated Torahlessness. That is why Elohim, your El, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners."

BrClif - _____________

BrClif - YaHUshua condemned the Pharisees, NOT for Torah-keeping, but rather for having hearts that didn't want to do the Torah.

BrClif - _______________

BrClif - In this day of great anxiety, what with millenial hysteria and governments that are hysteric over those who believe in the millenial reign, those who teach others to keep the Torah are considered INTOLERANT and UNLOVING...

BrClif - they are thought to be the enemies of a peaceful world of love...

BrClif - What does scripture say?

BrClif - Why does the world lack love? It's not because we don't choose to tolerate everyone's beliefs...

BrClif - MattitYaHU 24:12 and because of the increasing of Torahlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. People have become so hateful because strangers steal from them, rape and kill their children, sleep with their spouses, etc. All of these things are acts of Torah-breaking. If the WHOLE world would keep AT LEAST the 10 Words/Commandments, we would not even RECOGNIZE this present world system. I venture to guess that this world would be full of a LOT more LOVE! But maybe that is just another wacko's speculation, eh? ;)

BrClif - ______________

[21:34] EliYah Nope :)

BrClif - 2 Thessaloniki 2:3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of Torahlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.

BrClif - Shaul/Paul is speaking of the Return of the Anointed One.

BrClif - That Return shall not come, until the man of Torahlessness gets revealed.

BrClif - Shaul continues... The apostasy had already started in the Early Pauline Congregations when he wrote this, and scripture says that Shaul confessed to acting as a restraint against Torahlessness.

BrClif - 2 Thessaloniki 2:7 True, the mystery of this Torahlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the Torahless one will be revealed, whom the Master YaHushua will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.

BrClif - The Anti-Anointed and his Torahlessness will be done

away with by YaHUshua, Himself. What "good news" that is!

BrClif - Miracles and signs and wonders would abundantly accompany the Torahless One's presence in the congregation.

BrClif - 2 Thessaloniki 2:9 But the Torahless one's presence is according to the operation of haSatan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents

BrClif - ____________

BrClif - In 2nd Kefa/Peter, it says that we are to be separated from Torahlessness, not try to live closely with people who reject the Torah, as Lot tried to do in S'dom and Amorah...

BrClif - Welcome to our Sabbath meeting Lenny!

BrClif - We say "our" because it is ALSO "our" Sabbath..

BrClif - __________

BrClif - Torahless believers are to be ejected from the spiritual kingdom before the literal kingdom comes.

BrClif - MattitYaHU 13:41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing Torahlessness,

BrClif - Can you guess for what purpose these angels are collecting these people? I'll give you a hint. It IS NOT to crown them!

BrClif - A "How-NOT-to" guide... :)

BrClif - This is how YaHUshua will feel about Torahless people when the last day comes.

BrClif - MattitYaHU 7:23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of Torahlessness.

BrClif - ____________

BrClif - Gentiles/goyim/"the nations" are called Torahless/Lawless, this because, as nations, they do not elect to keep the Torah. Kefa/"Peter" tells us in Acts that the Romans were Torah-breakers.

BrClif - Acts 2:23 this [man], as one delivered up by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of Elohim, YOU fastened to a stake by the hand of Torahless men(goyim, Romans) and did away with.

BrClif - OUR nation is not Yisrael, YHWH's Kingdom, either. It has NOT elected to keep the Torah. It IS NOT "G-d's Kingdom" on Earth, as some believe. YHWH's Kingdom would be teaching and keeping the Torah.

BrClif - I pray that all of you will be in the Torah-keeping Kingdom, at the Return of the Anointed One, for that is the day when "The Torah shall go forth out of Tzion, and the Word of YHWH out of Yerushalayim." In YaHUshua's glorious Name!

BrClif - Hallelu-YaH!

EliYah - Praise Yahweh ! :)

BrClif - We now open the floor for discussion, input, and edification... :)

EliYah - I have something I would like to add..

EliYah - The word that is translated 'Lawlessness/Torahlessness' in your translation...

EliYah - Is either strong's word # 458 or #459 in the greek...

EliYah - #458 in strong's lexicon means..

EliYah - 'illegality, i.e. violation of the law'

BrClif - I'd rather be legalistic than illegalistic. :)

Juanita - HalleluYAH!

EliYah - Yes, and 459...

EliYah - 'lawless.. i.e. not subject to (the Jewish) law'

Lenny-Bratcher - legalistic is to keep the law from a wrong motive.

BrClif - EVERYONE is welcome to share and comment. :)

BrClif - Oh, well, in that case..

BrClif - I wouldn't want to be legalistic. :)

EliYah - +heb 10 17

BrClif - But I wouldn't want to NOT keep the Torah from a wrong motive, either. :)

EliYah - This word is #458 here in Heb 10:17

EliYah - It is a quote from the OT Jeremiah 31...

Lenny-Bratcher - Obedience motivated from a deep love and appreciation and respect, and righteous fear.

EliYah - And the word used there is chatatah in Hebrew

EliYah - Which is translated...sin

Lou777 - 1Tim 1:8 (ASV) But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully,

EliYah - chatatah = chata'ah

Juanita - Without law, we are like an airliner without rivets, being law abiding for the wrong reasons is like having faulty rivite

Juanita - rivets

Lenny-Bratcher - His Law guides us along "Safe" paths.

Lou777 - Let's face it! Yahweh loves His Law... so it must be good!

Lenny-Bratcher - "Sweeter also than Honey"

Juanita - Yahweh is good, therefore His law is good

BrClif - Honey is pretty sweet, which is why you call your wife "hone."

BrClif - "honey"

BrClif - The Messiah's yoke is kindly and light, but it IS a yoke, nevertheless.

BrClif - A yoke for service to the True Elohim.

Juanita - true

YermeYah - +psa 119 1 2

`Watchman - Psalms 119:1 - Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of YAHWEH.

`Watchman - Psalms 119:2 - Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.

BrClif - Everyone is pretty quiet...

Lenny-Bratcher - Take My yoke upon you, ... for My yoke is easy ... "burden is Light" Yoke of obedience and service.

BrClif - Didn't those words stir anything up?

BrClif - Maybe we should play it in #christian?

Lou777 - Psal 1:2 (ASV) But his delight is in the law of Jehovah; And on his law doth he meditate day and night.

Lou777 - 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the streams of water, That bringeth forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also doth not wither; And whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Lou777 - sorry about the J

BrClif - lol

EliYah - +psalm 19:7-9

`Watchman - Psalms 19:7 - The law of YAHWEH is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of YAHWEH is sure, making wise the simple.

`Watchman - Psalms 19:8 - The statutes of YAHWEH are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of YAHWEH is pure, enlightening the eyes.

`Watchman - Psalms 19:9 - The fear of YAHWEH is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of YAHWEH are true and righteous altogether.

BrClif - That YNCA pamphlet should be called "Sorry about the J"!

Lenny-Bratcher - +psalm 119:168

EliYah - +psalm 19:10-11

`Watchman - Psalms 19:10 - More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.

`Watchman - Psalms 19:11 - Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

`Watchman - Psalms 119:168 - I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

EliYah - Praise YAHWEH!!

BrClif - Yes, I first heard that in a Jewish synagogue...

BrClif - Had to go to one to hear it read, I guess.

Lenny-Bratcher - +psalms 119:165

Lou777 - what?

`Watchman - Psalms 119:165 - Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

BrClif - EliYah Praise YAHWEH !!

BrClif - Eliyah was using colors on the Sabbath. :)

Juanita - Oh! Oh!

EliYah - tehe

BrClif - lol

BrClif - Has everyone seen the Reverend Twistruth cartoons at http://www.messianic.com/ ?

BrClif - the link is at the bottom of the front page.

Lou777 - are you implying that we should go there now?

BrClif - No, you can later, if you like...

Lenny-Bratcher - +Isaiah 48:18

BrClif - They are sadly entertaining...

`Watchman - Isaiah 48:18 - O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

EliYah - Brethren, shall we close in prayer?

BrClif - Sure...

EliYah - Okay..Br. Lenny, would you like to close the meeting with a prayer?

BrClif - Glad you could make it, Lou, Lenny, Tru!

Lou777 - Hey BrClif, I owe you an apology... you were right about the "Ethereal" site to download the writings of the "church fathers"...

BrClif - oh, no problem...

BrClif - That's a wealth of info there!

EliYah - Lenny, you there?

Lou777 - I check it out... Actually I used another site, but the information that they offer is the same...

Lenny-Bratcher - I would like for us to recite Yahshuas Prayer

Lenny-Bratcher - "Our Father which art in Heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name."

Lenny-Bratcher -"Thy Kingdom come" "Thy Will be done"

Lenny-Bratcher -"On earth as It Is in Heaven"

Lenny-Bratcher -"Give us This Day our Daily Bread"

Lenny-Bratcher -"And forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors"

Lenny-Bratcher -"Let us not fall into temtation"

Lenny-Bratcher -"but deliver us from the power of the evil one"

Lenny-Bratcher -"For Thine Is The Kingdom, and The Power, and The Glory forever, HalleluYah.

Lenny-Bratcher - Hi Sati, we just had closing prayer.

EliYah - HalleluYah :)

YermeYah - HalleluYAH! So let it be!

Lenny-Bratcher - His Prayer is also a doctrinal discourse.

Lenny-Bratcher - Yahshua answered his disciples saying, when ye pray...

Lenny-Bratcher - ... Master, teach us to pray.

Lou777 - Why didn't he say "when we pray"

EliYah - He was speaking to his disciples, right?

Lenny-Bratcher - Bye friends , I must go and help take care of old folks through the night, turning them etc.

YermeYah - YAHWEH bless you Lenny

Lenny-Bratcher - It was sure nice to see you all again.

YermeYah - Shabbat Shalom :)

EliYah - Shabbat Shalom, Lenny...Yahweh be with you :)

Lou777 - Shabbat Sahlom Lenny

Lenny-Bratcher - Yahweh bless you too YermeYah and tell wife hello too, I like your music tape best still.

Lenny-Bratcher - Bye Lou7777

Lenny-Bratcher - Shabat sati

Lenny-Bratcher - Peace EliYah.

EliYah - Shabbat Shalom, BroDavid :)